Η Τελευταία συνέντευξη του Αντι Γουόρχολ

- Έχει ενδιαφέρον η τελευταία συνέντευξη του Αντι Γουόρχολ για τον Αλέξανδρο Ιόλα ...στον Paul Taylor και η οποία δημοσιεύθηκε στο περιοδικό Flash Art-1987

Andy Warhol - The Last Interview

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Flash Art - 1987

excerpt from "After Andy: SoHo in the Eighties" - by Paul Taylor

PAUL TAYLOR - : You are going to be showing your Last Supper paintings in Milan this year.

ANDY WARHOL - :Yes

When did you make the paintings?

I was working on them all year. They were supposed to be shown in December, then January. Now I don�t know when.

Are they painted?

I don�t know. Some were painted, but they�re not going to show the painted ones. We�ll use the silk-screened ones.

On some of them you have camouflage over the top of the images. Why is that?

I had some leftover camouflage.

From the self-portraits?

Yeah.

Did you do any preparatory drawings for them?

Yeah, I tried. I did about forty paintings.

They were all preparatory?

Yeah.

It�s very odd to see images like this one doubled.

They�re just the small ones.

The really big one is where there are images upside down and the right way up.

That�s right.

It�s odd because you normally see just one Jesus at a time.

Now there are two.

Like the two Popes?

The European Pope and the American Pope.

Did you see Dokoupil�s show at Sonnabend Gallery?

Oh no, I haven�t gone there yet. I want to go on Saturday.

It might be the last day. There you will see two Jesuses on crucifixes, one beside the other.

Oh.

And he explained to me something like how it was transgressive to have two Jesuses in the same picture.

He took the words out of my mouth.

You�re trying to be transgressive?

Yes.

In America, you could be almost as famous as Charles Manson. Is there any similarity between you at the Factory and Jesus at the Last Supper?

That�s negative, to me it�s negative. I don�t want to talk about negative things.

Well, what about these happier days at the present Factory? Now you�re a corporation president.

It�s the same.

Why did you do the Last Supper?

Because [Alexander] Iolas asked me to do the Last Supper. He got a gallery in front of the other Last Supper, and he asked three or four people to do Last Suppers.

Does the Last Supper theme mean anything in particular to you?

No. It�s a good picture.

What do you think about those books and articles, like Stephen Koch�s Stargazer, and a 1964 Newsweek piece called �Saint Andrew,� that bring up the subject of Catholicism?

I don�t know. Stephen Koch�s book was interesting because he was able to write a whole book about it. He has a new book out which I�m trying to buy to turn into a screenplay. I think it�s called The Bride�s Bachelors or some Duchampy title. Have you read it yet?

No, I read the review in The New York Times Book Review.

What did it say?

It was okay.

Yeah? What�s it about?

Stephen Koch described it to me himself. He said it was about a heterosexual Rauschenberg figure in the sixties, a magnetic artist who has qualities of a lot of sixties artists. He has an entourage. I don�t know the rest.

I�ve been meaning to call him and see if he can tell me the story and send me the book.

Who�s making a screenplay?

We thought that we might be able to do it.

It�s a great idea. Would you be able to get real people to play themselves in it?

I don�t know. It might be good.

Do you have screenwriters here?

We just bought Tama Janowitz�s book called Slaves of New York.

Does that mean you�re going back into movie production?

We�re trying. But actually what we�re working on is our video show which MTV is buying.

Nothing Special?

No, it�s called Andy Warhol�s Fifteen Minutes. It was on Thursday last week and it�s showing again Monday and it�ll be shown two more times: December, and we�re doing one for January.

Do you make them?

No, Vincent works on them. Vincent Fremont.

Do you look through the camera on these things at all?

No.

What�s your role?

Just interviewing people.

If there was a movie made out of Stephen Koch�s novel, what would be your role in it?

I don�t know. I�d have to read it first.

It�s not usual for business people to talk about these deals before they make them.

I don�t care if anyone ... there�s always another book.

I saw Ileana [Sonnabend] today and asked her what I should ask you, and she said, �I don�t know. For Andy everything is equal.�

She�s right.

How do you describe that point of view?

I don�t know. If she said it she�s right. (laughs)

It sounds Zennish.

Zennish? What�s that?

Like Zen.

Zennish. That�s a good word. That�s a good title for ... my new book.

What about your transformation from being a commercial artist to a real artist?

I�m still a commercial artist. I was always a commercial artist.

Then what�s a commercial artist?

I don�t know � someone who sells art.

So almost all artists are commercial artists, just to varying degrees.

I think so.

Is a better commercial artist one who sells more work?

I don�t know. When I started out, art was going down the drain. The people who used to do magazine illustrations and the covers were being replaced by photographers. And when they started using photographers, I started to show my work with galleries. Everybody also was doing window decoration. That led into more galleries. I had some paintings in a window, then in a gallery.

Is there a parallel situation now?

No, it just caught on so well that there�s a new gallery open every day now. There are a lot more artists, which is real great.

What has happened to the idea of good art?

It�s all good art.

Is that to say that it�s all equal?

Yeah well, I don�t know, I can�t .

.. You�re not interested in making distinctions.

Well no, I just can�t tell the difference. I don�t see why one Jasper Johns sells for three million and one sells for, you know, like, four hundred thousand. They were both good paintings.

The market for your work has changed a little in the last few years. To people my age � in their twenties � you were always more important than to the collecting group of people in their fifties and sixties.

Well, I think the people who buy art now are these younger kids who have a lot of money.

And that�s made a difference in your market.

Yeah, a little bit.

How important is it for you to maintain control?

I�ve been busy since I started � since I was a working artist. If I wasn�t showing in New York I was doing work in Germany, or I was doing portraits.

What I mean is that as more and more artists come up, and as new galleries open every day, the whole idea of what an artist is changes. It�s no longer so special, and maybe a more special artist is one who maintains more control of his or her work.

I don�t know. It seems like every year there�s one artist for that year. The people from twenty years ago are still around. I don�t know why. The kids nowadays � there�s just one a year. They stay around, they just don�t ...

You were identified with a few artists a couple of years ago � Kenny Scharf, Keith Haring.

We�re still friends.

But I never see you with any of this season�s flavors.

I don�t know. They got so much press. It was great. I�m taking photographs now. I have a photography show at Robert Miller Gallery.

And there�s going to be a retrospective of your films at the Whitney Museum.

Maybe, yes.

Are you excited about that?

No.

Why not?

They�re better talked about than seen.

Your work as an artist has always been so varied, like Leonardo. You�re a painter, a film maker, a publisher ... Do you think that�s what an artist is?

No.

Can you define an artist for me?

I think an artist is anybody who does something well, like if you cook well.

What do you think about all the younger artists now in New York who are using pop imagery?

Pretty good.

Is it the same as when it happened in the sixties?

No, they have different reasons to do things. All these kids are so intellectual.

Did you like the punk era?

Well, it�s still around. I always think it�s gone but it isn�t. They still have their hard-rock nights at the Ritz. Do you ever go there?

No. But punk, like Pop, might never go away.

I guess so.

How�s Interview going?

It�s not bad.

You�re going to be audited soon for the Audit Bureau of Circulations.

Yeah, they�re doing it now.

What difference will it make?

I don�t know.

It will be better for advertising ...

Yeah.

What�s the circulation now?

170,000. The magazine�s getting bigger and bigger.

What magazines do you read?

I just read everything.

You look at everything. Do you read the art magazines?

Yeah. I look at the pictures.

You�ve been in trouble for using someone else�s image as far back as 1964. What do you think about the legal situation of appropriated imagery, and the copyright situation?

I don�t know. It�s just like a Coca-Cola bottle � when you buy it, you always think that it�s yours and you can do whatever you like with it. Now it�s sort of different because you pay a deposit on the bottle. We�re having the same problem now with the John Wayne pictures. I don�t want to get involved, it�s too much trouble. I think that you buy a magazine, you pay for it, it�s yours. I don�t get mad when people take my things.

You don�t do anything about it?

No. It got a little crazy when people were turning out paintings and signing my name.

What did you think about that?

Signing my name to it was wrong but other than that I don�t care.

The whole appropriation epidemic comes down to who is responsible for art. If indeed anyone can manufacture the pictures of those flowers, the whole idea of the artist gets lost somewhere in the process.

Is that good or bad?

Well, first of all, do you agree with me?

Yes, if they take my name away. But when I used the flowers, the original photograph was huge and I just used one square inch of the photo and magnified it.

What do you ever see that makes you stop in your tracks?

A good display in a window ... I don�t know, a good-looking face.

What�s the feeling when you see a good window display or a good face?

You just take longer to look at it. I went to China, I didn�t want to go, and I went to see the Great Wall. You know, you read about it for years. And actually it was great. It was really, really, really great.

Have you been working out lately?

I just did it.

How much are you lifting now?

105 pounds.

On the benchpress? That�s strong.

No, it�s light. You�re stronger than me, and fitter and handsomer and younger, and you wear better clothes.

Did you enjoy the opening party thrown by GFT at the Tunnel?

I had already been there before.

In the sixties you mean?

(Laughs) No � the manager or someone took me around it a few days ago.

It�s a very convenient club for the Bridge and Tunnel people � they�ll be able to come in on those tracks from New Jersey.

I don�t know whether it was my idea to call it the Tunnel or whether it was someone else�s idea that I liked, but I think it�s a good name.

And lots of people turned out for Claes Oldenburg�s show that night.

He looked happy. A lot of people said he looked happy. I always liked Claes actually. You looked great the other night. I took lots of photos of you in your new jacket.

Yes? How did I turn out?

They haven�t come back yet. Next time you come by I�ll take some close-ups.

For the �Upfront� section of Interview perhaps? Except that I�m not accomplished enough.

You could sleep with the publisher.

If you were starting out now, would you do anything differently?

I don�t know. I just worked hard. It�s all fantasy.

Life is fantasy?

Yeah, it is.

What�s real?

Don�t know.

Some people would.

Would they?

Do you really believe it, or tomorrow will you say the opposite?

I don�t know. I like this idea that you can say the opposite.

But you wouldn�t in this case?

No.

Is there any connection between fantasy and religious feeling?

Maybe. I don�t know. Church is a fun place to go.

Do you go to Italy very often?

You know we used to make our films there.

And didn�t you have a studio in the country for a while?

Outside of Rome.

And did you go to the Vatican?

We passed by it every day.

I remember a polaroid you took of the Pope.

Yeah.

Did you take that from very close up?

Yes. He walked past us.

And he blessed you?

I have a photo of him shaking Fred Hughes�s hand. Someone wanted us to make a portrait of the Pope and they�ve been trying to get us together but we can�t and by now the Pope has changed three times.

Fred said he used to feel like the Pope in the old Factory in Union Square. He used to go out on that balcony and wave at the passing masses underneath.

He has a balcony now.

Yes, but from the current Factory he can only see the reception area.

He can wave.

And sometimes it�s just as busy as Union Square too.